Wednesday, May 2, 2012

Can Ayla Be Found? {Part 2 of 2}

Here is the second part to my follow-up on the psychic’s perspective. It has been well over a week since I posted the first part of my article, and since then, a lot has happened; we’ve posted some astrology tidbits, we’ve had more discussions on the blood found, we’ve learned of new evidence found in the river that could be related to Ayla’s case, there’s been a break taken by Trista and her step-grandfather, Jeff Hanson on Answers For Ayla following this news release (which then brought on the redirection of their blogsite onto ours), as well as newly shared details regarding Trista and Justin’s romantic relationship that introduced further discussion on blood DNA (to say the least)…it has been pretty crazy here.

That being said, this second part to my first article is coming in at a delayed angle and since I wrote the draft of this article, my thoughts have changed in several aspects (as they always do with this tragic case). J4A created a new thread once the comments on Wordman’s article hit the 200-count, and I’ve shared quite a bit of thoughts on there with all of you on that post. If you’re new here or are a regular and haven’t been around today to read through them all, I think you’ll find them interesting and thought provoking. I’m so pleased at the positive discussion on the blog today (as well as last night); it’s a nice change in direction after such a trying couple of weeks. That new thread can be found HERE.

This post will address the psychological aspects of the information we received and duly posted. First, I’d like to address a thing or two: I am not in the field of psychology, and it should not be assumed that this is in anyway close to a psychological evaluation. My plan on this second part was to mainly provide links to articles I located in my internet searches regarding psychology and that of a liar (among other things). The psychic’s perspective that we received left me confused, and my internet research proved to be insightful at the very least and I feel as if I’m now at least partially versed in what parallel lying is and reasoning behind the same.

Near the beginning of the information provided to us, the term, “parallel lying” was introduced. Although I had heard of this term before (but in different context and phrasing), I was not entirely sure on what this was. I came across an article on parallel lying, which was the fifth part of a five-part series of articles on “The Poor Man’s Polygraph”; in it, parallel lying was briefly touched on as follows: ”People tend to tell the truth except when the truth prevents them from achieving a desired outcome.”

(If you’re interested in reading the full series of articles on “The Poor Man’s Polygraph”, it begins HERE.)

In these articles, it is repeated throughout the posts that the technique of The Poor Man’s Polygraph provides deceptive indicators, not proof of deception. It also states that no one verbal cue indicates deception, but the probability of deception increases when clusters of deceptive indicators are present. As a side note, this struck my memory, as I have read this throughout Statement Analysis’ website.

In part three of the aforementioned series of articles, it is detailed that “Liars, when faced with two choices, tend to pick one of the choices presented rather than seeking a third alternative. This tendency is due to cognitive overload. Truthful people do not experience cognitive overload; they simply convey facts. Liars, on the other hand, are operating at near-full or full cognitive capacity depending on the complexity of the lies. Liars have to remember what they said and did not say. They also have to monitor and control their verbal responses and nonverbal behaviors. Additionally, liars have to monitor their target's verbal responses and nonverbal behaviors to ensure that the target believes the lie. The mind of a liar is fully occupied, especially if detection has dire consequences.” Reading this brought me back to Justin’s minimal interviews he has given in the last four months…

Recall Justin’s first interview on the TODAY show; in it, he defended his silence by stating that he was “emotionally incapable” to do an interview. To me, that speaks volumes. Could he be holding up his lies so firmly in his mind that he has no more capacity available to introduce anything “extra” for Trista, her family, the public, the media, and even LE? Since that first interview, he has maintained his silence, with minimal further statements given as well as allowing commentary from the likes of distant family members and trusted adults in his circle; my issue with this of course, is that the additional comments voiced from these people (we all know who they are) pretty much cement the notions that this man is guilty, or at least plays a part in the guilt.

Why would anyone continue to make excuses for such actions lack of actions on his part, and do so with such pride and firmness? All of the Readers on this blog comment regularly on their thoughts that answer this question; could they all have a part in this? Maybe, maybe not; but, I do believe manipulation plays a big part here. (More on that later.)

The second portion of the information provided to us detailed a sense of anger that Justin has potentially harbored towards his mother, Phoebe, throughout his life; the anger is that which was festering internally throughout Justin’s life as a direct result of Phoebe’s life choices. I stumbled across another article when searching for insight on anger; in it was an interesting quote: ”What you feel matters; what you do with your feelings even more so.”

This above-linked article discusses the three poisons of life: greed, ignorance, and anger. Take a look at how anger is described here: “Anger is different than the other two emotions in this way: anger per se isn't a problem. In fact, it is useful as an emotional marker indicating that a moral value has been breached. It is a valuable emotion in relation to perceived injustices. As legal scholar Steven Hartwell, professor emeritus of University of San Diego points out, "the role of anger is fundamentally . . . to readjust relationships . . . Anger says that not only was there an unfairness, but the unfairness either came about or was intensified because the action was inconsistent with expectations raised by the relationships . . . Anger singles that a relationship needs repair."”

Could this give explanation as to the dynamic between Mother and Son (Phoebe and Justin)? Their relationship needed repair; had Phoebe ever addressed issues with her children for her life choices? Were there issues amongst them? Obviously, we do not know, but it makes for interesting thought processes when considering other silent angles in this case.

The final part (and overall lingering thoughts I’ve had throughout this case) is the unending support from the women surrounding Justin; I see a lot of manipulation on Justin’s part, followed by an abundance of enabling on the women’s parts. In yet another article I came across, an enabler was described as one “who is quick to create a context in which another person can play out his/her own script. S/he is the clean up crew, the bank, the Great Mother (or Father), the counselor, coach, confidante and priest. S/he is the unwavering refuge from the big, bad world who creates herself to be, not only ultimately dependable, but virtually indispensable to the continued behavior of the enabled”.

I see this in all of these women: Phoebe, Elisha, Courtney, Heidi, Angela, and even Aunt Selena; they have poor boundaries, they trust too easily and some of them seek validation from their actions (although they like to appear otherwise, even though their responses on their private pages are nothing less than immediate defense for their actions and their unending support).

With regard to manipulation, the final piece I wanted to address after reading through the psychological theory given to us, I came across this article. The initial portion of the article addresses how we as human beings rarely address any signals that predators display, and how there are always clues. Here is a quote from the article: “There are clues. But it's not the behaviors they reveal that matter; it's how easily we overlook them or give them a benign spin. Predators operate best within a realm of trust, using social conventions as their tools. They rely on charm and exploit expectation.” It also describes how charm is almost always a directed instrument, which has motive.

There is also a list provided in “clues to look for”, so to speak, when dealing with potential psychopaths; what stood out to me is one from the list: “Psychopaths tend to like control, so if the social rules you express are unclear or weak, they'll spot the loopholes and take advantage.” This was a huge red flag for me in terms of the loopholes in the system that Justin was able to ascertain, which then supported his retrieval of Ayla from Jessica’s apartment. In my eyes, Justin knew what he was doing, down to the rainy night in which was perfectly in line with one of Ayla’s injuries.

Again, this is just another theory, but at the time that we received the psychological reading, this theory above hit me a little more deeply. If you consider the family dynamic that Phoebe created within her family, I think it would make sense that one (if not all) of her children harbored a resentment that stuck with them throughout their lives to the point of triggering the dark psychology of one’s mind (i.e., a dormant capacity for predatory behavior; to commit and engage in heinous acts, and this capacity has access to our thoughts, feelings and perceptions). We all have this inner aptitude, but only a few of us act upon it.

As a final thought to all of this, I came across a single paragraph in my research that I felt was rather thought provoking. I will provide the first sentence for you to ponder: ”According to the Doctrine of Doing and Allowing, it is more difficult to justify doing harm than it is to justify allowing harm.” This one sentence wrapped up all of this in my eyes: the manipulation, the anger, the resentment, the enabling; all of it. It’s as if Justin’s immediate support system has literally felt that justifying the allowance of the harm in Ayla’s life versus addressing the harm inflicted on Ayla’s life is where the priorities lie; how ridiculous does that seem to you? I’ve read a lot of comments from the support system in his life giving reasons and excuses for every injury Ayla endured, rather than answering the direct questions which could support (or more than likely NOT support) the harm Ayla endured. It continues to make NO SENSE TO ME. After reading this article, following all of the new developments shared on our blog over the last week or so, what are your thoughts on all of this?

(Update: Unfortunately, the broken link was for a purpose; the link I pulled weeks ago appears to no longer be available, or I may have copied the wrong one as a whole and cannot locate it anymore! I did find a separate page altogether that was interesting and is related to the Doctrine of Doing and Allowing Harm, and it can be found HERE.)

As for Justin…only you have the power to change all of this for your daughter. When will the time be right?


100 comments:

  1. Great post JMH!!

    It becomes overwhelming to think of ALL of the contributing parties and factors, enablers, and circumstances, that helped to make Justin DiPietro the evil liar, and (probable) baby-killer he is today...
    D:

    JMO/MOO

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    1. And that only accounts for the ones we know of VTLady. I have yet to see anything concerning his actual father, if he even knows his father (JD I mean because we don't know how many fathers there are for Phoebes three kids).

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    2. Lol, JohnP!
      My guess is 3 kids = 3 different (absentee) Dads...

      Pheebs doesn't seem to approve of "shared parenting" relationships, and it looks like she instilled these same values in Elisha & Justin, who I suspect BOTH manipulated the system in order to keep their child's OTHER parent out of the way!

      I say this---NOT ONLY because Justin made a custody grab of Ayla and then kept her away from TRISTA---but ALSO because I suspect the RFA order that's in place against Gabby's father is based on fabricated allegations.

      I don't buy the claims that JLinnell threatened Elisha's life and/or abused her & Gabby, but the DiPs didn't bother to change the front door locks---it doesn't pass the "straight face test"---especially considering they installed SECURITY CAMERAS just because a vandal busted out one of their WINDOWS.

      Also, the claims by Elisha, IIRC, are substantiated ONLY by other DiP family members.
      Family members WE KNOW to be willing to go on national television and LIE to help aliby the stories of others!!

      JMO/MOO etc..

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    3. Excellent point, only after Ayla is "kidnapped', after the death threats, and finally after they get two windows smashed do the cameras go up. If the JL threats were legit, why not put up cameras then. Why was Gabby living in a house where her cousin was kidnapped without cameras. But then a thug smashes a few windows and they put up security cameras, according to another site, Doesn't this look a little odd to you?"

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    4. ITA VTLady, on all points!

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    5. Very interesting read, JMH.

      If y'all get a 404 error on the links in JMH's post, try these and see if they work better:

      http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/let-their-words-do-the-talking/201012/poor-mans-polygraph-part-5

      http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/let-their-words-do-the-talking/201011/poor-mans-polygraph-part-1

      http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/am-i-right/201203/greed-ignorance-and-anger-the-three-poisons

      http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/enlightened-living/200902/the-enabling-relationship-and-not-giving-yourself-away

      hope this helps! Nan

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    6. Thanks, Nan! This always happens to me; whenever I paste in my drafts from a Word document, the links get broken up (as do the font coding) as soon as I publish it. So weird; thank you for taking time out to share these links!

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  2. Very good JMH. I actually read the poor man's polygraph and found it enlightening. I know this was very time-consuming for you. Thank you.

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    1. It was, but it was well worth it all. Anything for Ayla!

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  3. Excellent post! It was also interesting to read about how the women in his life find themselves helping and defending him, which is something I haven't been able to understand. Maybe it is harder for them since they know him and are not on the outside of the box looking in like we are. But, he also does have supporters who have never met him which is something I really don't grasp.

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    1. Thanks, Heather! It is hard to grasp entirely, but it makes sense from a psychological perspective, in my opinion. It takes a certain type of personality to cling onto and support a person we assume Justin DiPietro to be; lots of issues going on here if what we assume of Justin proves to be factual.

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  4. Because we know so little about Justin ( and he likes it like that ) it's realy hard to get a grasp of who he is.
    Here are his stressors I can think of:
    Trista, Child Support, New Scenery at Phoebe's, being under her roof again!, trying to go to school and better himself. Less time to party.
    Then we have COURTNEY ! Trista has no filters and says it like it is. Living in fear that Tista would shoot her mouth off about sleeping with him.
    Trista is not in a position to support Justin and Ms. Courtney will be very soon. Justin seems to like to take the path of least resistance. And get women to think of him as a puppy that they need to take care of and "fix".

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    1. So is THAT the attraction these women have to DiPdong?
      That whole: "Ooooh! But, this dog's SO ugly it's actually CUTE!!", bullshit??
      :/

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    2. That is the question! He has a lot of female supporters, I don't get it...what's so attractive about an unemployed guy living in his mom's basement?

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    3. Maybe he comes across as a little lost puppy. I've never met him but in interviews he looked scared and lack of self esteem. Scared because he had to answer or is that his nature?

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  5. Great Post JMH, I went back and re-read part 1 before reading this. I am glad I did to refresher myself on the intricacies of the family dynamic within the DiPietros. I really did enjoy both articles. Keep doing great work!!

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    1. I think it would be really interesting to see how much Phoebe's knowledge of the inner workings of the State Assistance Programs was passed on to her own kids. The "puppy groomers" seem to like bashing Trista for her reliance on the state but yet they have given Phoebe a free pass. I have to say tht looks like a double standard to me.

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    2. I agree John P! I believe Phoebe and the rest of the DiP's to be the "poster family" for double standards, especially regarding, child support, welfare/assistance (of any and every kind - housing, schooling, child care, medical etc.), parenting, co-parenting, drugs, drinking. All these things are A-OK for them, but not other people; single parenting is OK for them, but not other people.

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    3. Very well put Kit. This is the biggest problem I have with hte arguements presented in defense of JD and Co. There has been the double standard in play for months, yet there is only one family that has consistantly put every effort out to bring Ayla home regardless of the resulting affects on themselves.

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  6. I really liked this post but all of the links give me 404 errors? Is it my Mac? I did find your snippets of reference and interpretation to be thought provoking and insightful but why don't those links work for me so I can see what the actual source is? Grrrr...

    Anyway, the logic seems solid even if the links don't work. I much prefer this over psychic readings (and did you mean to say psychic rather than psychological reading in the first sentence in the 4th to last paragraph?)

    I particularly like the ideas about how liars experience cognitive overload and how it effects what they say and do. I've seen this first hand with liars and I think it speaks volumes about Justin's words and behavior since he reported Ayla missing. That and the insight into the mindset of enablers, and what Justin's supporters have put out there, really just add up to explain what we've observed both publicly and in some blogs about this case.

    I can't help but feel that the MSP and AG's office are closing in on the truth of this case and the grand jury that meets in the next week or two will be hearing the state's request for an indictment. I have to believe that if this next grand jury doesn't take it up it means that MSP aren't confident in what actually happened to Ayla, and that thought makes me terribly sad. If they don't have enough evidence to even seek an indictment yet, I'm afraid that doesn't speak well for their case in the long run. You can be pretty much 100% sure that if the state takes it to the grand jury there will be an indictment...the level of proof in that venue does not have to meet the 'beyond a reasonable doubt' level that a trial jury must conclude.

    Good job, JMH. I'm going to try to get those links to work for me now. I see the actual sites embedded in the links so I'll work within the links to go to your sources.

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    1. In response to the links above, if you click on a link,notice in the address bar there is blogger information before the http:// for the link. Delete the blogger information at the beginning and the alpha/numeric tags at the end and the links will appear. I don't know how to fix this but I am sure JMH can check on this when she gets a chance. Thanks for informing us of this issue. Hope this helps for the time being??

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    2. Yeah, John P, that's exactly what I figured out will work. If it's not just me/my Mac I hope JMH will try to fix the links though. Obviously there was an attempt here to make a well-referenced post and working links will add to the credibility it appears she's done a good job of trying to embed.

      Really OT, but I bet if it's a universal linking problem (not just Mac) JMH is frickin bummed right now after all the hard work put in. Fix it up though, we understand JMH! Still a great post.

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    3. JMH is not available at this minute but I am sure she will try to affect a fix, if there is one, as soon as able. Thank you for your understanding. I too think JMH put alot of work into both Part 1 and 2. She is a great support and fighter for Ayla.

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  7. I just finish reading the Prev articles and the comments. I did not get a chance to comment before they hit 200 mark. I hope that no one minds that I am going to comment here about the prev comments. I just wanted to say, now that the information about the affair has come out. I remember the text message from Trista. The one where she was surprised to find out that Courtney was visiting Justin every weekend. I would not be surprised to find out that he was telling Trista that he wanted Ayla to live with him, and that after a while, he wanted her to be there too..(the text about being a family) he really lead her on to being together and never let on that he was still seeing Courtney. Just a thought, I wanted to share.

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    1. PB ITA with your comments. I am going back to where J4A posted possible responses to the "One-sided texts". Trying to figure out how the responses may have changed with this new information. One thing for sure, thhe texts have more definitive meaning now!!!

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    2. That's interesting PB. Quite possible. There is a reason why only one side of those messages where posted IMO...

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  8. Maybe they can start a part 3 to the previous post. People still want to talk about that previous post. I agree with you purple butterflies

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    1. Suz, I do not know if Wordman is available right now, but I did e-mail to see about the possibility of a page 3 for further discussions.

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    2. Gosh I'd hope that 400 comments is enough to cover the ins and outs of the potential significance of 3 sexual encounters in a 6-month period. Wordman seemed like he'd said all he's willing to say about it (and did a damn fine job of respecting Trista in it all). Unless we want to talk about what position they did it in, is there anything more to say that wouldn't be just as relevant as a response here to this post, the current post, where people are currently reading? Have at it, I say...as a total Anon.

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    3. Anon 7:26, I apologize if you do not think a 3rd page is needed. I personally cannot see comments over 200 or the potential significance, so I must respectfully refer to the writer of the post. Thank you for your input.

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    4. I believe people can talk about it as much as they need to and no we have not run out of comments nor any need to talk of positions. The new info has opened up new trains of thought that many want to explore.

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    5. Apparently the affair is one of those soft spots that struck a nerve, that CERTAIN people don't want to talk about. It is a fact in the case, an important one too. It's another thing that maybe Justin should speak up about himself, if he doesn't like all the speculation. He NEVER speaks up about anything. I don't think even 1/2 these things bother HIM, they bother the people who are trying to stick up for him... If it's not bothering HIM, why is it bothering them?

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  9. I was just reading Peter Hyatt's latest ( today's ) and I found this snip interesting.
    .........
    Anonymous said...
    "According to one of the blogs, Courtney Roberts claims she never saw Ayla that night. Her story is that she arrived at the house after Ayla was already asleep."
    ..........
    I know you can't believe it cause someone typed it out, but I remember that the psychic said, that Ayla was gone before the reported kidnapping. Has anyone been anywhere where they have seen the above wrt Courtney ?
    ....
    a Canadian friend who thinks too much

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    1. Canadien Friend, I assume the anon poster was referring to the 16th of December??

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    2. If she really didn't know, why are the police including her in the list of people not telling all they know? Sure they could be in error, but I think Courtney knows.

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    3. Anon, the reason I asked about the 16th, is because I think the harm to Ayla was inflicted much earlier. If so, maybe the MSP believe this is what they are not telling all they know about?? Just a guess though. I do not know what CR told MSP so all I can do is theorize.

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    4. It is possible that whoever was watching Ayla had put her to bed, harmed, and then others came home assuming Ayla was sleeping and did not bother to check? Courtney quietly talkes on TLLOM at times.

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    5. Yes John, I too have felt it happened before that date. IF courtney did not see Ayla that night, that she was told Ayla was already in bed, something could have happened after courtneys previous visit. So many lies tho who the heck knows!

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    6. ITA Chicky! I hope MSP can sort out all the lies and find who is responsible. If not, I think MSP will charge them all and let the jury sort it out.

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    7. Put them all in a locked room, someone is bound to get hungry, thirsty, need a beer, a smoke, a snort, .... leave them long enough and let them start fighting amongst themselves.
      Wonder how long it would take to break one?
      I'm running out of patience so I think MY way will work! lol
      Bedtime for me, long day. Gone for two days, chat then, Hope you are well John!

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    8. It is certainly possible that Courtney and Aiden got to the home the 16th, after Ayla was "put to bed" (or so she thought). Why would she not believe Justin if he said Ayla was sleeping in bed? If that is the case, then Courtney would pass a lie detector test, because she would believe she was telling the truth. Also, if Courtney is just putting this together in her head, that Ayla may NOT have been in bed sleeping, it's not too late to go and TELL that you did not actually SEE Ayla that night! It would explain why Courtney would risk her life for Justin.

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    9. Anon 4:46, your assumption is correct only if you believe that Ayla was still there on the 16th. It is my beflief she was not. If she was harmed the 8th or 9th like I suspect, then Courtney is using parallel lying techniques to try and cover for Justin still! She should answer if she she saw Ayla between the 8th and 16th, and if so when and where? That would be the questioning if she was hooked up to a poly, if you ask me!

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    10. John P. It is correct even if Ayla was not there on the 16th. How would Courtney know if Ayla was in bed or not in bed if she did not go in that room? If someone told you a baby was sleeping in a house upstairs and you were visiting. Would you know if the baby was there or not, if you didn't go check? Or would you believe the person who said a baby was sleeping upstairs? It works either way. They could have lied to Courtney too!

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    11. I agree, they could have lied to Courtney as well. However, based on my suspicion of the 8th or 9th being the date of the injuries, I would think Courtney would have seen Ayla or spoken with Justin and heard Ayla. between the 8th and 16th. Courtney did say herself that she felt of Ayla as "one of her own". IIRC the weekend before was the 8th-10th. Did Courtney see Ayla? She has not answered that question that anyone is aware of. Because of this, I feel she knows alot more then she has said!

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    12. I also have modified my scenario from the one J4A posted for me earlier. Thier were alot of great comments and reasoning and my scenario involves Courtney alot more in the planning of the cover-up. The question is which one of the two Courtney or Justin is the one that spilled Aylas blood.

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  10. I think this is a great article/post, JMH. Very interesting and informative.

    I've also noticed that the enablers seem to also be manipulative and/or some kind of "abusive". While enabling (making excuses), they tend to blame EVERY SINGLE thing on someone else, usually the victim, which inturn victimizes/abuses them even MORE.

    I've thought right along that courtney is just as manipulative as Justin. I wonder about the dynamics of a relationship, comprised of 2 equally manipulative/abusive people. Often times one of the people in a relationship is timid/abused, but with both members being of the same nature, life must become explosive, at times.

    PLUS, as far as the DiPietros go, I get the feeling that Phoebe is quite manipulative AND an enabler (of her children). When you spoke of JD knowing what he was doing, during the "custody grab", I REALLY think it was Momma Manipulator, originally behind that - maybe even with help from Manipulator courtney.

    It seems like a LOT of the same psychological personalities/issues, mixed together. I wonder if there is any educational info about this; about how different people with the same issues get along/interact with each other? Also, it seems like they all have a few different psych issues each - for example, Phoebe being both manipulative AND an enabler. Do most people usually have more than one issue at the same time?

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    1. Kit, I agree with 95% of your comment. The one thing is Courtneys involvement with the grab. I think she would have been against it knowing that the grab would mean "her stud" would have much more interaction with his"booty-call"! JMO

      I like the comparision very much of the three manipulative personalities colliding. It would be exp;osive as you say and possibly very harmful on any on the children that wwere there when the explosions occured.

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    2. It doesn't seem to me that the idea for Justin to get Ayla while Trista was in rehab came from Justin...there's no reason for us to think that he suddenly got the idea that with Trista gone for 10-14 days Ayla was suddenly better off with him than with her other family members that probably had regular caretaking responsibilities. He never wanted that role before after all.

      I just don't see that as being a wake up call for him without outside influence - maybe Phoebe or Courtney, thinking more of child support payments than the child. At the same time, I don't discount the idea that Trista may have indeed been the one to tell Justin he should get Ayla so they can all be back together when she "gets out". I think it's not an unreasonable idea for a woman in her situation (forced into rehab, dealing with withdrawal and all that can do to the mind) to try to grasp on to the ideals most dear to her as we saw from her texts.

      From what little we know, do you think Courtney would be more inclined to favor distance, uninvolvement and child support payments for the next 17 years or would she favor brining Ayla closer, having to care for her and manage 17 years of weekly visitation hand offs? That decision is a big deal if she really sees herself having a future with Justin.

      Phoebe on the other hand doesn't care so much about Courtney, she's concerned about her boy and his future and she knows how he can turn being a single dad into a more favorable position.

      So Phoebe calls the shots, Courtney is unhappy about it and Justin is stuck in the middle. It doesn't answer what happened, but it's an idea that sets the stage.

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    3. Excellent Summation! Very logical and thought out!

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    4. John, I personally just don't think that Justin knew ahead of time, that he could just go "take" Ayla AND not give her back. Nor do I think he "cared" enough to do so. I really get the feeling that he was coached and pushed into this. Either that, or it was more about the control/manipulation of Trista and the situation. Or just control in general, and Ayla just happened to be his pawn for gaining control. Plus I think Phoebe and/or courtney are of the same manipulative/controlling nature. It's not really that they wanted Ayla, that they loved her SO much, I think it didn't even really have anything to do with her. It had to do with control and possibly/probably money. They would gain control AND save and get more money. It was a win/win, until they or at least he realized just how difficult, time consuming, exhausting it is to raise a toddler. It IS rewarding, it is fun and enjoyable, but not ALL the time, and probably NEVER to him.

      Just like when Trista wanted to take Ayla for a visit (after the dr appointment), and Justin told her "I'm not going to have you telling me what to do". I think he was enjoying the control, even though sadly not enjoying Ayla, PLUS I think he was being "egged on" by the rest of the manipulators.

      JMO

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    5. I think we are thinking very much alike Kit. I think Phoebe coached him through the grab. She then manipulated him into seeing he could work the system to his benefit after the grab. I just don't think he was smart enough to see the control he could have until after the grab had been done! That was when Courtneys manipulation kicked in. The statement he made to Trista after the doctors appointment sounds more like Courtney then Phoebe or JD for that matter! Hope this makes sense, I have it worked out in my head but maybe not writing it very clear.

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    6. @JohnP

      Personally, I think CR mistakenly believed there would be LESS interaction between Justin and Trista, post custody grab.
      I think she thought it would be easy for JD to gain full and SOLE custody of Ayla, bc Trista is an "addict" and known to DHHS.
      And in the MEAN time Justin would simply ignore TR phone calls, and since TR doesn't drive, that she could manipulate things so that Trista was cut out of everything.COMPLETELY.

      When this immediately DIDN'T happen, she began encouraging Justin's resentment and abuse of Ayla, and sold him on "how easy" it would be to pull of this LIP scam, and be RID of his little "unwanted inconvenience" permanently, avoid ALL future child-support obligations AND become 20 to 50 thou richer in the process.
      I think Justin did most of the serious injury to Ayla AND the actual killing, while CR kept her hands as "clean" as possible.

      JMO/MOO

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    7. VTLady, your reasoning is a possibility. I really have trouble resolving that CR would take that chance after having being cheated on once already. I would assume, most women in that position would far too apprehensive to take a chance on something this big. I may be way off though. I also think it was Phoebe that orchestrated both the grab and the failure to return Ayla on the 22nd. I was Courtneys jealousness aafter the 22nd that led JD o tell Trista, You aren't going to tell me what to do, or close anyways. I think the cat slipped out of the bag and the rage that harmed Ayla was rage by Courtney. This is just an alternate thought but yours is just as viable!

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    8. You may be right about that, JohnP!
      I don't think I fully get the whole "woman once betrayed" angle, in the first place..

      Why even STAY with a man you fear is cheating on you---or you suspect WOULD---especially if you've been recently heart-broken, and left for another woman?
      Does this behavior even make sense??
      :/

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    9. No VTLady, that behavior makes no sense to me. My mother however used to feel fear of being alone if she left her abusive husband. She finally did and now she is happier than she has been in years! Abused and betrayed women seem to act diffently from case to case. It is hard to find a normal behavior.

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    10. I'm glad your Mom got away, JohnP!
      It's really sad that so many women do not...
      :(

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  11. I wonder what elisha's story is? She and gabby were already tucked in before Justin arrived with Ayla and put her to bed alone? Is Derek the insurance salesman the last person besides Justin to see Ayla before she disappeared?

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    1. "Now is not the time", to disclose such information.

      It's a mystery...

      If they are SO offended with people speculating, they COULD just speak up...

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  12. Courtney knew he was cheating on her and got the ultimate revenge on Trista. The ultimate betrayal. The prior post was more about Courtney having MUCH MORE MOTIVE THAN JUSTIN. Smart Ass Anonymous needs to get his head out of the gutter. What a pervert you are Anon, use your brain. Courtney knew and couldn't stand that Trista talked to Justin. She even said after Ayla was reported missing, in a post, Why does Trista need to talk to Justin all the time. Now I understand her meaning. And, now understand Tristas one sided text, If that ... bi.. Hurt Ayla, I'm gonna kill her" etc. Courtney knew he was smitten with Trista cuz a woman can always tell when their man is cheating. BIG TIME MOTIVE and she may have slammed the sweet baby out of Justins bed and cracked Ayla's head on the cement. But all Anon can think about is three times or something like that.

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    1. Suz, if Courtney did it, something is keeping Justin quiet. Loyalty it's not. So what could it be? Blackmail?

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    2. Anon, I have to respectfully say Suz's theory shows means, motive and oppertunity. There are several possibilities concerning the reason for Justin to remain silent. It could be she manipulated him into thinking he was responsible because of the affair, it could be based on the drug rumors possibly being involved, he could have been smoking a little weed when it happened and became paranoid. IDK but there are too many reasons to dismiss the theory based solely on JDs' silence.

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    3. Ah. Suz, who's the one who wants to keep talking about a few quickies? How does the fact that I think there's been enough talk on the issue make me have my head in the gutter and be a brainless perv? Wouldn't it be quite the opposite? I think it's been talked about enough because I'm not a perv and would like to keep the focus out of the gutter that is so easy to slip into.

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    4. John P, I wasn't dismissing it, just asking for her reasoning to be extended to its logical conclusion. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I think you did a good job filling out some possibilities though. With this being her second cheating bf, it's certainly possible Courtney took revenge against Trista and went overboard to compensate for her feelings of being used the first time and not doing anything about it.

      Anon 7:58

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    5. anon 7:58/5:32

      Sorry I misunderstood the intent behind your question. I read it more as sarcasm. Thank you for your kind response.

      And your reasoning of why Courtney may have been the one with the fit of rage is exactly what I was thinking as well. A womans scorn and all that, you know!

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    6. What's keeping Justin quiet, or Courtney, and vice-versa?? It's called:
      COMPLICITY.

      They planned, carried-out, and covered-up their various crimes against Ayla TOGETHER.

      They're both involved to a serious enough degree, that the ONLY WAY to implicate the other, is to admit their own---SIGNIFICANT---role in the crime(s).

      Until they are SURE there is no "getting-off SCOT FREE", and investigators/DA/GJ call their bluff by executing some arrest warrants, NEITHER ONE is gonna say SHIT.
      Plain and simple.

      JMO/MOO

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  13. Yes, blackmail for drugs, Courtney's sister is in Federal trouble for drugs, looking at 15 years.the talk in Waterville is JD is the pill dealer, not small time,mind of medium or large scale drug dealer. Also, he lied to police and knows he is going down unless he can get the "person who is not her parent some kind of immunity. Courtney's sister will rat himmout if he dumps or turns on sleazy Courtney. They all use Maine tax dollars for that are supposed to be going to putting them through college, in everything else. Drugs, IPads, IPhones, clothes, check her pinterest. I hope they don't get away with "losing" the baby.

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    1. Thanks for the reply. Certainly makes sense. I would also guess if she did it, she got him involved enough in the disposal that there's more than false reporting at issue for him now.

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  14. Very sorry for the typos, I reread the post and there are a few typos, but you can see what I mean. I sure hope that Trista finally leaking this evidence will spur someone to collect on that 30,000 reward.

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    1. I hope someone speaks up out of moral duty and respect for Ayla rather than $$.

      But whatever, as long and she can return home.

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  15. JMH, Thank you for all the work you put into this wonderfull post!!

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    1. No, the thanks goes to you (and everyone here)! I am thankful to be contributing here, and I appreciate your words!

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  16. If they had morals and / or a conscience they would have spoken up 6 months ago. The Waterville 5 coven and solidarity needs to be broken. I am angry with that Pastor too. He had a moral obligation to pray with them for the spiritual strength to be honest and free baby Ayla. Or give her a proper resting place.

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  17. I was thinking about the crazy women that flock towards Justin and defend him. This family I know kind of does the same thing with her son. There is mostly women in the family, but have two sons out of six children. The dad has been gone for around fifteen years and most of children have moved out. It seem that at any given time there is at least one of the children living with the mother again. Which these days is pretty normal for children to live with their parents longer. Anyways one of the sons moved back in and he is an addict,alcoholic, and has monster anger issues like the rest of the family. Most of the children turned to drugs alcohol after the father left. This family drinks together and might do drugs together including the mother.
    So it's the mother and grown son living together. The son is very obnoxiously outspoken and is god of his world. The mother has a small chihuahua type dog that ended up being beaten to the point it was having problems walking. The dog is the mothers and the only other person there was her son. She protects him, covers his ass, lies for him, and can't admit to herself that he is the one that beat up the dog. She was in such denial about this that she would rather believe his lies that someone else must of broken in, beat up the dog, and left without anyone noticing, than to actually admit that he (her baby boy) could have done such a dick move.
    This reminds me of the women surrounding Justin. Maybe they are covering for him or maybe they can't admit to themselves that he might of actually did this.
    I am all for parents protecting their kids and maybe even overprotecting in some circumstances, but whom ever believes that Ayla wasn't hurt/murdered by anyone in that house that night is an idiot.
    I agree that maybe it is a possibility that he is pulling this off by keeping tack of all of his lies and that's why he has been silent for so long. Not so he doesn't say the wrong thing, but to make sure his version of the right information is out. I pretty sure he's not some genius level liar. I mean look at the fucking lame RadioShack story. It's the same bullshit that mother I know does for her son.

    It was the one armed man who did it, not my son. Not my son."

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    1. @NickSmith:

      "I mean look at the fucking lame RadioShack story"
      LMFAO!
      So lame it's comical...and YET, it got him off the hook.

      No wonder these morons seem baffled that their "abduction" story wasn't believed.

      They're *USED TO* lying and scamming their ways thru life, and getting away with shit, IMHO.

      It probably never dawned on them that they were only "getting away with" these relatively PETTY crimes, because LE does't have the manpower or resources to pursue them, and NOT because they were "out-smarting" the "dumb cops".
      JMO/MOO

      Step up the game to fake "abductions", and baby-murder-for-profit, and suddenly LAME ASS excuses aren't gonna cut it!

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    2. But, but, but the doctor believed Justin about the rainy night broken arm story, why wouldn't the police believe him about a mysterious abductor? Especially since Justin knew that they weren't going to buy the "she tripped and fell" routine after he, pardon my expression, beat the life out of her.

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  18. Auntie Selena mentioned more than once that the basement was insulated and a a person couldn't hear anything from down there. But were Elisha & Gabby down there all night too ? And that Ayla was " checked " on at 10 PM, by whom ? Justin ?
    Door closed, no one sees the baby or even cares if the baby was there.
    .....
    Nick Smith, I think that Phoebe is just like that.

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    1. It was stated on several occassions the Li and Gabby were in the room across from Ayla, not downstairs. This is the first though, that I have heard of one of the W5 claiming to have checked on Ayla at 10:00 PM. If anyone has heard this before Selenas reference to this, can you please recall where or maybe post a link?

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  19. Yea I agree, but this is so serious. How can Phoebe live with herself. She actually believes someone came in and took Ayla. So maybe she was not there right when it happened and now believes the lie. I have been so angry with Phoebe from the start. But, I now think Courtney is up to her eyeballs in this and that CR may have abused or worse Ayla, and is somehow blackmailing or holding something over JD and in turn PD head. Do you know, where I live, in my county they would confiscate PD house, take it and kick her out if drug sales or any other serious illegal activity was going on. I seen it threatened to someone here. I would want some kind of deal for my son, if it was abuse, but I would haul him in there with a lawyer and admit guilt and cut a deal, on the punishment, and Ayla would not be missing or discarded. If it was deliberate murder for money, I would disown my own son. But if not I could not live with the knowledge and I would tell the truth, and Ayla would be alive and back with Trista or laid to rest properly. That is why I despise PD and call her the gma from hell. That is just my opinion and theory.

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    1. Most of the bullshit that I hear from that family I was talking about earlier and other people like that is :
      "Bloods thicker than water."
      That is such a cop out with everything.
      Oh my child's missing, but bloods thicker than water so we say nothing.
      This whole our family is sacred crap is old. There is a baby missing and they are till treating Justin like a 5 year old. Protecting him from everything he does.
      All of my friends in high school whom had rich families pull the same shit. It never stops. The parents could literally see them (I hate to say it) murder a baby and still not come forward.

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    2. Nick Smith, a big problem I have with this scenario in this case, is Ayla is blood to this family as well!! Phoebe still says nothing.. :(

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    3. I think Ayla was "missing" for a week before the fake kidnapping so Phoebe would have known about what happened to her. She was out of that house that night by design, not coincidence.

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    4. Anon, ITA. I think saying she was out of the house that night is her way of one upping Justin. Now with Courtney distancing herself by saying she never saw Ayla, that only leave Elisha to back up Justin's claim of the "ordinary" night.

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    5. And I think Elishia has distanced herself as well with different representation then Justin. That leaves just Justin and his flock of followers!

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    6. that is the most telling thing to me. That Phoebe and Elisha retained a separate atty. from Justin. These are people with limited income. How can they afford it. Heidi's probably paying for Justin's.

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    7. Or at least one of the Tudelas. I am starting to think that Heidi is not the only one hiding/protecting JD in that house.

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  20. I agree, I have seen how the rich pay to keep the kids outmof trouble. Look at John Edwards, he is being prosecuted right now. That old man Madoff,his sons were involved, but he took life in prison and the boys escaped prosecution, then one went on and committed suicide within a year oor two. The Kennedys, I could go on. But, stubborn Phoebe, is covering up for her family, the drug dealing, baby Ayla. Phoebe and Selena are disgusting. And so are the rest of them. LD, ED, JD and CR.

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  21. "According to one of the blogs, Courtney claims she NEVER SAW AYLA THAT NIGHT. Her story is that she arrived at the house after Ayla was already asleep. " I read this on a site. Is it TRUE?

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    1. This is the first I have heard of this. I don't know what she may have told MSP the morning of the 17th. Has it been verified by LE? I don't believe so. On another blog I also read Courtney refused the polygraph, but LE says ALL in the house that night have been polygraphed. I have to believe she did because LE contradicted the story on the blog. Just my reasoning.

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  22. Anon, we don't know if this is true or not. It was stated by an anonymous on the Statement Analysis blog. Smells alot like Courtney trying to CYA while throwing Justin under the bus. If she claims she never saw Ayla that night, Phoebe was out and Li claims she was in bed asleep before Ayla was put down, leaves it square on Justin's head doesn't it?

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    1. Very good point Grace, and throw in that Phoebe and Li have thier own lawyer, seperate from JD, and Lance is being made the scape goat without a lawyer of his own for the assault! Wow, it seems the only two still together are Phoebe and Elishia. Lance, Justin, Courtney, your on your own! Justin has the puppy pound protecting him, who does Lance and Courtney have watching thier backs? Someone needs to speak up before they get tread marks on thier back!

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    2. If Justin, Phoebe and Li all have lawyers, surely Courtney has one too? I wonder if its the same lawyer as Justin? If she had her own, one would think he would be giving her better advice than she is apparently getting.

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    3. Isn't she in her Masters Program? Maybe she thinks she can represent her own interests for the time being? Unfortunately, we don't know who Justins lawyer is or if Courtney even has a lawyer.

      Maybe a well meaning reporter for the MS could pose these questions and do a short story? Don't see either of them responding to reporters though so it is a mute point! Thanks for not speaking up for Ayla Courtney, one of "your own"! You too Justin, your doing a great job with fatherhood, NOT!!

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    4. Represent her own interest... Hmmm, yes if they never open their mouths, there's not really a need for legal representation. Not YET, anyway...

      They are doing a good job. Of keeping their crime(s) and secrets quiet. But the time will come. The truth is the truth.

      That's why I really commend Trista. For speaking up SO much for and about Ayla, and ALSO, for speaking the truth, no matter how it will reflect on her.

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    5. ITA Kit, I was commenting on a post from SA that said Courtney is now claiming that Ayla was already put to be when she arrived in Waterville that weekend! I think it was made by anon and I assume the comment was on TLLOM since that is where she like to discuss "her stud"??

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    6. I did hear that at one point, but didn't/don't read too much into it. It could or could not be true, of course. I wonder where exactly that statement came from? Is courtney trying to distance herself, or did a Defender just make it up...? IF that is true, it just puts more suspicion on Justin anyway. This along with Ayla being "checked on at 10pm", are things that are questionable. Who checked on Ayla at 10pm? What time did courtney arrive with her TODDLER? After 10pm? Didn't her son need to go to bed at a reasonable time? Where was she, before arriving. These questions can't even be answered (truthfully) anyway, going on the assumption that Ayla was "missing" before she was "kidnapped". THAT is a major reason why none of them speak up. Afraid of all the lies, getting caught in a lie, as well as fear of being asked something that a lie was not prepared for, you know, like being asked about what you love about and what is special about your daughter (Ayla). That was a tough one...

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    7. A tough one, indeed, Kit...

      "Tell us, what makes Ayla special, Justin??"
      (*cricket!*...*cricket!*)
      "Ummm, uh, ummm...She's my daughter?"
      :/

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  23. I'm really glad your post is back up, JMH!!
    Let the commentating commence!
    :)

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    1. Thank you, VTLady & John P! I appreciate it. :)

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