Thursday, March 22, 2012

Prosecuting "no body" Murder Trials

Can a murder case be prosecuted without the body as evidence?
These types of cases will be some of the hardest a prosecutor has to take to trial. As of January 2012, there have been 356 “no body” murder trials in the United States. Of those 356, 48 have been trials where the victim is under 14 years old. Of those 48, 32 were trials where the defendant is the victims parent, step-parent, or live-in significant other. Here are three of those cases:

Logan Tucker, age 6

Logan Tucker was 6 years old when he disappeared on June 23, 2002 from Woodward, OK. He was living with his mother Katherine Rutan, his 4 year old brother and a roommate Melody Lennington. Logan’s father had not been in his life since he was an infant. DHS had removed Logan and his younger brother from their mother’s care because she threatened harm to them but the children were returned to her in a few days. Shortly before his disappearance, Logan was caught playing with matches and Katherine tried to get help from local officials stating that Logan had burned down a previous residence. Three days before Logan disappeared, Katherine told DHS she wanted to relinquish her parental rights to both children. DHS said they would place him in residential treatment but did not have an opening for a few days and Katherine became angry. The roommate, Melody, last saw Logan on the night of June 22, 2002 when she put both children to bed. Melody woke up between 3 or 4 a.m. by Logan screaming and crying but went back to sleep. When she woke at 6 am, she asked Katherine what happened to Logan who responded that Logan was sick and she put him in the basement. Later when Melody asked about Logan, she was told various stories about DHS coming to get him, him living with his father or he was placed in a psychiatric hospital. Katherine had different stories of where Logan was for different people, she even told different stories to DHS. After Logan’s grandparents kept getting evasive answers to his whereabouts they reported his disappearance on July 7. When LE searched the home of Katherine and Melody, they found bloodstains and duct tape with hairs stuck to it in the basement. They also found plastic sheeting, rope and drain cleaner in Katherine’s car. In February 2006, Katherine was charged with first-degree murder in Logan’s case. She was convicted of murder in 2007. The jury only deliberated 2 hours before reaching a verdict and recommended a sentence of life in prison without the possibility of parole. His body has still not been recovered.

Alicis Versluis, age 3
Alicia Versluis was 3 years old when she went missing on May 7, 2000 from Ponoma, CA. Her mother, Simona Demery, stated she took her children to the park and Alicia wandered off at 12:45 p.m. while she was reading on a park bench. Alicia’s twin sister, Ebony, said that her mom “took sissy, wrapped sissy in a blanket and put her in the drain.” After Alicia disappeared, Demery and her live-in boyfriend, Jeffery Jones were charged with child endangerment due to unsafe living conditions, exposed electrical wires, animal feces on the floor, marijuana near where the children slept, no potable water and no food. Shortly after charges of child endangerment, they were both charged with second-degree murder, corporal injury to a child, felony child abuse and conspiracy in the disappearance of Alicia. Authorities conducted numerous searches for Alicia but turned up no evidence. In July 2001, Demery and Jones were convicted of all charges and sentenced to 33 to life in prison each. Both defendants appealed but were denied. Alicia’s remains have still not been recovered.

Thomas Gibson, age 2

Thomas Gibson was 2 years old when he went missing on March 18, 1991 from his home in Azalea, Oregon. Thomas was last seen playing in the front yard of his family's residence in rural Azalea, Oregon at approximately 11:30 a.m. Thomas's father, Larry Gibson, then the Douglas County Deputy Sheriff, told authorities he took a jog around the family's property in Azalea during the late morning hours of his son's disappearance. Larry carried a handgun with him to shoot stray cats, many of which had been living on the property. Larry claimed he shot at a cat near the area where Thomas was playing, but missed the animal. He then continued on his jog and learned his son was missing after returning to the house approximately 45 minutes later. The family summoned LE later in the day to search the property. Larry was told not to report to work at the sheriff's office, but apparently dressed in his uniform and left the property for approximately 25 minutes during the investigation. He stated that his four-year-old daughter witnessed an unidentified couple pull into their driveway and abduct Thomas. Larry said he was checking a local rest area for signs of Thomas and the couple. While members of the community searched for Thomas, Larry sat at home; at one point he told the searchers to give up and go home because it was snowing. LE believed that Larry shot at a stray cat and killed the animal, as a deceased cat was located on the Gibsons' property near Thomas's last known location. Investigators believed that the bullet traveled through the cat and struck Thomas as he played, killing him. They theorized that Larry noticed Thomas's body after returning from his jog and buried the child in an effort to conceal the crime. Larry denied this scenario and maintained his innocence throughout the investigation. He resigned from the sheriff's office and moved to his native Montana after his son's disappearance. He and his wife separated in 1994, and she took their three other children and moved back to Oregon. Larry's estranged wife and his daughter later changed their stories to authorities and said that she witnessed her father hitting Thomas, put the child's body in a black plastic garbage bag, put the bag in the back of his patrol car and drove away. He was charged with murder in Thomas's case in 1994. Prosecutors argued that Larry had a history of abusing his children and was under stress at the time of Thomas's disappearance, as he had to care for the children while his wife was taking college classes. They theorized that, if he did not accidentally shoot his son, Larry lost his temper and beat the child to death. Larry was ultimately convicted of second-degree manslaughter in 1995. He was released from prison in 1996. Thomas has never been located.

What do these cases show? That even with only circumstantial evidence prosecutors can get a conviction.

These cases also show things that we have known and speculated in Ayla's case, abuse, DHS failing the child, someone saying to stop searching, drugs, blood evidence and in two of the three above cases foul play is suspected.
The first thing prosecutors will have to do in murder cases with “no body“ is to prove that a crime has been committed before a person can be convicted of the crime, corpus delicti. In these cases circumstantial evidence is key.
Prosecutors will have to show that based on the circumstantial evidence that the only logical answer is that a murder occurred. The defense will try to come up with other plausible scenarios based on evidence or lack of as the cause of disappearance. LE will have to make sure they give prosecutors enough evidence to rule out everything but murder.
The most damning piece of evidence in Ayla’s case is the blood found in the basement by Justin’s bed. The prosecutor will have to show how “a cupful” of blood would be detrimental to a toddler of Ayla’s size without getting her medical treatment.
So why if there is such a damning piece of evidence against the people in the home the night Ayla disappeared have there been no arrests? While I am no lawyer, I would say because the prosecutors want to make sure all their pieces of the puzzle fit in correctly so that even with a missing piece, the body, the big picture is still seen and there will be no reasonable doubt with jurors that another scenario for Ayla’s disappearance is plausible.
While we all want an arrest now, we have to be patient so that those responsible can be put away for a long time and I have no doubt in my mind that LE and prosecutors are working diligently behind the scenes to find that justice for Ayla.


  1. Are there statistics available on convictions of the accused regarding trials with no body?

    I wish there were arrests on December 17th, but if it makes a difference on the conviction, I'd rather wait patiently (or try to anyway). I just wonder how long the wait is going to be...

    1. Convictions for murder where there is no body are extremely rare in the U.S.. Most prosecutors won't go forward until a body is found. This is because of double jeopardy, which is a very powerful protection in the U.S.. Other countries, such as Britain, have done away with it.

      In the U.S. if someone is tried without a body there is a likelihood of acquittal because of the difficulty of establishing beyond a reasonable doubt that the person is dead. Then later a body may be found showing conclusive proof that the former accused committed a murder. But he will walk free because the Double Jeopardy Clause will absolutely bar another prosecution of that same person.

      The only way to eliminate the risk of the murderer walking free with absolute immunity from prosecution is to wait until the body is found, and then proceed with all of the evidence before the jury.

    2. Kit, most of my research came from the blog of Thomas A DiBiase. He has prosecuted 2 "no body" cases with convictions and consults with law enforcement around the country on "no body" cases. He has done a lot of research on this. Here is a link to the chart of the 356 murder trials with no bodies he compiled. It also tells you if they were convicted or not.

    3. Thank for the link T4A.

    4. Yes, there are some statistics on "no body" cases but these will be conveyed in due course. I have 2,400 "no body" cases from all over the world (5th century BC to the present day).

  2. In order for prosecutors to fully commit to a strategy intellectually and emotionally they need to let this main window to recover the body pass and hope a lucky citizen or dog team stumbles onto the right location.

    Knowing how much circumstantial evidence is available LE would be moving slowly forward with machine like precision to close off every possible avenue for alibis in case the body is never found.

    With the blood and life insurance policy they have the circumstantial evidence and probably called in a sister states experts to further bolster their case if it proceeds without a body recovery.

    The not strenuously denied by LE assertion of more than a cup full of blood makes a vigorous detailed prosecution inevitable.

    Great research and presentation of facts.

  3. I agree they're gonna be really careful but there may be a second reason and that drug arrest that they would say was related or not was a clue. These folks are going down, and it will happen when all of the ducks are in order.

  4. Very interesting post J4A. It's nice to see a good read with actual facts in it that could ultimately help find Ayla or bring her to justice. I also think that MSP is also allowing for a little hope to shine for her to be alive there working on this as we speak! they don't want anything to be premature just incase they pin a murder on someone and She was alive the hole time...or something else...check out these things J4A..Damion Echols and the WM3 all you need to do is read this and I know you will want to blog about this!!!

  5. I again wish I could take the credit but T4A wrote this post and did the research. Great post T4A!!!

  6. VERY well done, Justice for Ayla!

    I couldn't help but notice that in each of these cited cases, someone came forward to help seal the convictions. Logan had Melody and his grandparents. Alicia had her twin sister, Ebony (along with reported evidence of extreme child endangerment in the home). Thomas had his sister and mother eventually speak up for him. All these children had a guardian angel eyewitness to testify...something that Ayla is sorely lacking at present.

    But I remain confident that the case is building, and charges will be forthcoming.

    Again, fine research! Those were hard cases to read, but at least justice finally prevailed.

  7. Yes, on the floor, by the bed.
    That certainly means he might have killed her in a rage, as the site was not prepared(think godfather...plastic) for such an event.
    Possibly because Trista sped up his LIP murder plan by filing.or because she was already dead, they got rid of her and JD wanted TR to file to frame her for a custodial abduction...this fits more. see why(drugs) below...

    1)Perhaps he messed his own LIP plan up early on, after the 8th, by killing her drunk(and/or on drugs), or coming down hard from the private party ED, CR and he had til the wee hrs of the morn' and he was trying to sleep it off. Ayla toddles down the stairs, no gate, and tries to wake him, causing him to explode and hit her to the ground next to the bed, where her head hits the concrete and fractures.

    - Or, since there are oxys and coke in the pic via BR, They get f-ed up on snorting ground up oxys and coke off a mirror, and leave the mirror out next to the bed and pass out. When JD hits her, she falls agianst the mirror, and a severe cut, or stab/puncture wound results. they go back to bed till ED finds her(see below)...

    This could be the reason the excuses for the blood contained a cut for JD and PD, but minimize this from a cut to a scrape for Ayla. Why not a cut, or a bloody nose, which would not even leave a scar?

    Ayla falls next to the bed, hemorrhaging in a pool until JD and CR gets back up again hours later, and CR was in the same condition next to him, so didn't say or do anything to help Ayla. Just as guilty. ED does indeed find Ayla gone from her room when she sobers up, goes downstairs and finds Ayla. JD wakes up and panics, tries to run up the stairs to escape, or get phoebe the fix-all and hits the gate as he is still messed up.****(Continue this theory at the "@@@" below, as the outcome is the same for this theory and the alternate theory below)**

    My other thought is that maybe Phoebe was not watching Ayla some of the times JD claimed she was, and they were leaving her in the basement, locked in by the baby gate. This could serve as babysitter, just give her books, TV, toys, food and juice, and maybe even some adult cough syrup to make her drowsy and lethargic, so she wont be a bother or cry.
    JD and CR go out for the day, and ED and PD are home, or are in and out themselves. All know where Ayla is, and don't care.
    Ayla falls off something,his bed while jumping up and down perhaps, and cracks her head on the concrete, and lays there bleeding, in a coma, on the cement, but alive, for an entire day till he gets home. Or she falls off the stairs, and crawls to the bedside and bleeds out there. ED, and PD are home the whole day, but figure since she is so quiet, she is happy or sleeping down the dungeon. JD AND CR get home in the late afternoon or eve., and go downstairs together, and find her in a pool of blood.

    2) They panic, but stifle any noise as they go into an instant state self-preservation, and do not want the neighbors to hear. JD slips going UP the stairs(curiously, this is like his excuse in the arm break story)and crashes through the gate in his panic, while trying to get PD and ED downstairs without yelling.
    3 part post

  8. @@@ While trying to be as quiet as possible, they either wrap Ayla in a bedsheet or towel, soak the blood, then in something plastic, or the bleeding has stopped or is minute now,due to lack of volume, so they wipe her clean and get ready to take her out of there.
    They start to clean the blood on the floor up, JD calls "the helper"- DT, or someone close to JD who has known him very well a long time, or someone JD has gravely serious dirt on - "the helper"), so they can get her out of there and put her somewhere she will be found later, so the LIP is valid for a kidnapping death.

    The LIP is the primary concern, getting caught is second. This will not look like an accident, especially in light of the Dr. visits, abuse concern reports from TR, and the broken arm.
    They quietly take her upstairs to the shed or the garage, until TD (or whoever "the helper" is)arrives to dispose of her... one or all of ED, PD and CR are left behind to do a more detailed clean up, come up with a story that fits their and JD's timeline superficially, and you know the rest...
    If the cool st tip was true, then they could have carried her from the house shed or garage to "the helper"'s car on cool st. Barely alive, she wouldn't need a coat, or a garbage bag if the bleeding had stopped and she had been wiped clean.
    They have somewhere around a week(she dies sometime after the 8th, which is why no one sees her except TD supposedly, who is possibly "the helper"), and no doctor appts. are completed either(Nov 12, etc...), the last being the 16th, the day of TD's boy's "playdate".
    None of them want to be culpable, solely or otherwise, and none of them can clear themselves either as they were all there and responsible in their own way, no matter what truly happened.
    When did JD text TR the abduction fears BS?

  9. haha 3rd part
    Phoebe may or may not have been there.She would protect ED and JD, so she very well may have been gone, so the "oddities" comment could be her lack of knowledge of the household items JD took to use in the clean up and disposal.
    Lance is off doin his own thing, never knows what is going on most of the time, but hears she is kidnapped, and freaks. Fights with JD, discovers the truth and that the whole family is involved (and will go to prison once the LIP is discovered and the dots are connected from custody grab, Tax deduction, no CS payments, abuse and neglect, lies, and missed appts, no sightings, etc.. )so LD decides on the spot to protect them, not Trista's kid. Is unusually calm the next day, and part of this is unloading some stuff to Bob Vear while getting weed stuff out of his apartment in case the cops want to look there too

  10. Purposeful. I do not think they planned to murder her when the custody grab took place, but afterwards.
    JD gets Ayla to fix the child support problem and to get back at Trista, and get all the power by having physical possession on Ayla. He sees her as a financial resource, as TR draws county benefits and free medical from having her, plus bilking him for child support, which he has so far refused to pay. If he has her, he can call the shots, force TR to pay him support, and if in school or not working, he can get benefits and free medical himself. Only it doesn't work this way and he does not realize this-the kid has to live with you for a minimum amount of time and you have to be their primary caretaker.
    Ayla proves to not be a resource however. He can't even claim her as a tax deduction or dependent. Ayla subjugates JD as a resource himself, by needing constant care: Food, drinks, shitty diapers, naps, crying, baths, sunblock, diaper rash, childcare, appointments, doctors that ask questions, question his living arrangements and parenting, and not to mention that Ayla wants love and attention most of all cause she misses her mommy and aunt, the only home she has ever known.
    Trista has rightful custody, and will get it back thru court, and he knows this. He does ot know what to do, and is grasping for solutions where he comes out on top, Trista on the very bottom. Then he talks to Derrik, and the idea hits him like a lightning bolt-BAM! It is perfect, and kills three birds with one stone, so to speak.
    1)LIP murder gets rid of the endless drain he is now stuck with either caring for, or paying child support for, Ayla, -the double edged sword.

    2)It makes him a stack of cash, $25,000. Say hello to independence, form PD, and everything else holding him back.

    3) He gets instant revenge on Trista the interloper, who he absolutely hates with a passion.

    Either he kills her in a drugged out stupor/rage or by EXTREME neglect. Because of the location of the blood, and the amount we know of so far, we can assume he did not plan to murder her next to his bed, instead of a less incriminating place where no clean up was required(= way less evidence)outside of the house, like the woods, and then put her in a pre-dug hole... this points to him ruining his own MURDER for LIP plan, already in the works, by killing her early, unplanned, at a very inopportune place. yes I think premeditated murder was planned, just that unpremeditated murder occurred before the scheduled murder could take place. I think she did not die instantly, and was removed alive and horribly injured. SHe was probably dead and gone near the between the 8th and the 11th, as it was a weekend night, neighbors reported a party there that weekend(party is unverified, for the public anyway, and also thought to have been the night of the 16th). He missed her Dr. appt on the 12th, reportedly telling portland roomates later on he was too drunk or hungover to take her.
    Does anyone know when he sent TR the kidnapping fear texts?
    The date of these texts I thik are very important to the timeline, and shows his original intent with the LIP, and wether or no he actually ever planned to make her death look like an accident, or was going to kill her and claim abduction and death ffrom the abductor all along. THE date of the texts accommodates the kidnapping story, and if she was still alive, this could indicate he planned to create an "accidental" death for the LIP, but changed to kidnapping when the accident went wrong, and no longer was believable as an accident. I would like to solve this bifurcation in his possible motives, and the story. Anyone who can source the texts to TR date, that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

    1. Nice analysis and model building. This point:

      "this points to him ruining his own MURDER for LIP plan, already in the works, by killing her early, unplanned, at a very inopportune place. yes I think premeditated murder was planned, just that unpremeditated murder occurred before the scheduled murder could take place."

      ... and the possibility of two blood types or all one type is the HINGE POINT. Whether a second source of blood is ever attributed to someone else in the house.

      A lot of the modeling would depend on that.

      As time passes I lean towards the three females mostly as patsies getting the wool pulled over their eyes. I go to the pattern of behavior exhibited in the Linnel assault where Justin did the strategy and logistics and Lance the tactical violence of the actual assault.

      These aren't professional career criminals who study, train, scout and then execute a plan with back-ups and escape plans.

      Phoebe's absence at the stage abduction and befuddlement over "oddities" causes me to think she knows the truth without proof.

      Elisha is primarily afraid of losing Gabby and is teamed up with Phoebe again in regaining the top spot of a dysfunction

      Courtney knows what happened and helped in the clean-up.
      She's a bit on the odd side but nothing pathological.

      It still leaves Justin Lance & Derek in a planned and staged attempt at accidental death claim and murder that failed.

      That is where the blood comes in.
      If it is a broken mirror or glass object thrown in anger that escalates into an incident people rushing about in bare or stocking feet add their blood into the mix and it becomes
      a premeditated murder attempt followed by some sort of very extreme incident leading to severely injured Ayla.

      12-8 to 12-16 followed by two weeks at the Tudelas is a lot of time for everyone to get drawn into believing incident two was truly "An Accident" and backing up whatever Justin Lance and Derek did to clean and cover up.

      In terms of a vanished Ayla, no one has accounted for where she was in the early A.M. when three males including Justin are at the Cumberland farms in Portland.

      They must claim she is in the vehicle and stick together or find an alibi participant who watched her. If she is long dead by the 15th anyone claiming she is being watched or in the vehicle is implicated if they can prove the blood loss was catastrophic.

      Nice modeling Emerald.

    2. thanks. I love those dumb logic puzzles- "sally lives in a green house , and has a poodle. Luke lives in a red house and doesn't have the golden lab, but does have a small dog..." you know the kind...

      That is how I am approaching this case. I do think there is more than one blood or tissue type present, and in more than one location.
      The big spot next to the bed is the main site, as this is where the blood loss injury probably occurred.
      My earlier posts on SA and J4A are also extensive(sorry), and cover the possibility that the DIP's cut foot excuses were given perhaps in a specific order to preemptively explain the location of the blood(on the floor, in the basement, and possibly the stairs, entry landing,any water sources like the nearest sink or washing machine, the shed/garage, etc.. AND to explain the presence of the blood,hair with blood, fibers with blood, tissue or bodily fluids of anyone that was present during the murder and cleanup, as they were unaware of what LE knew and had found, so tried to give an answer that could explain all these possibilities, instead of saying straight out that it was Ayla's blood from, say...a bloody nose, or a small cut on her arm... they lied for a reason, to cover what they already knew...Ayla's blood was on the floor in the basement by the bed, and what they did not know...who else's was with it. LE stated SOME of the blood being analyzed was hers, not all. It could very well all be Ayla's blood, and LE knows this, but said ONLY SOME to rattle the DIPs and CR, get them to confess or slip up in a lie, which they did kind of.
      .Or there is other blood types/tissue present, and LE knows this, and is using it as a tool to prod and pressure. We will know before too long I think.

    3. Emerald,
      If you want to email me so I have your address, instead of posting these in the comments sections, you can post these as new blog posts, most of our readers really enjoy your theories and they are backed up with solid facts and I will send you a blog invite whenever you are interested!

    4. or emeraldsphere at facebook
      I might just try that
      I have a lot of time on my hands to think :D

  11. Emerald, I agree with your theory. Especially that his original plan was botched. I can't see that he would PLAN to murder/harm/hurt her next to his bed. I was on the fence about whether he had planned something before he grabbed her, but you brought up great points as to why it was most likely after the grab. It seems that everything with him points to $$$, easy money. I think it happened close to, if not on December 8th. I think along with all the other headaches Ayla was causing for him, she was probably increasingly missing Trista, especially having just seen her that day. I wonder if her speech was increasing as well, maybe being able to voice her wanting Mommy, even more. I also wonder of maybe while Justin was in "school", the others were giving him a "break" and helping out with Ayla quite a bit more, then when school was over, they decided enough was enough, it was time for him to care for her.

    I just wonder how they could keep it a secret for that long, until December 17th. People had to have asked where Ayla was in between the actual date and the 17th. Possibly people who didn't know what happened and the DiP's didn't want to know. They must have had to lie and cover for each other on a regular basis...?

    1. Realistically, who would be asking for Ayla? Trista and her family, through her, only. Who other than Trista cared enough about Ayla to notice she was not around, ask where she was, and then not be satisfies or feel weird about he answer, suspect it was a lie, or if the lie was believed multiple times before becoming suspicious (like Trista did), would think to check up on Ayla and the pattern of lies. No one saw her because they isolated her on purpose beforehand, as they likely fully intended on killing her for the LIP. LD does his own thing, doesn't live there... so is kept out of the loop, both until he has serves his purpose of being the genuinely concerned family member-the only one-until he is told the truth, and so they don't have to deal with his big mouth, volatile,unpredictable behavior, and drinking binges. The four at the house ran the show, they have the bond of a common horrible experience..., they used lance, then recruited him through manipulation. It is as easy as not wanting to get caught.

  12. Emerald said- "Possibly because Trista sped up his LIP murder plan by filing.or because she was already dead, they got rid of her and JD wanted TR to file to frame her for a custodial abduction"

    Remember also that she had a doctor visit set for Dec. 16. With the pressure of the court filing and the pending doctor appt., he was at a juncture where he was going to have to produce a living baby, healthy but for the broken arm. I think desperation set in because he could not do that. He may have thought he could get away with blowing off the dr. visit by saying Ayla had healed, she was fine, but with that court petition pending, that would not fly. She was either already dead when he started denying Trista access or he new producing her would put him in jail for abuse, IMHO.

  13. Sincerely Wondering?March 22, 2012 at 3:31 PM

    I will post one last time: in hopes of a response.

    QUESTION to those that believe Trista is hiding Ayla? I am being sincere with my question as to if this is your beliefe PLEASE explain to me why. What I don't understand about those that insist that Trista has Ayla hiding is this.

    With advancements in science and technology a good reason to believe she would have been found. I am a student with a science emphasis and a psychology major. There is alot of reasearch that has been done about the information that is revealed by modern scientific investigative techniques. I am not talking about a "lack of evidence to convict Justin" I am talking about scientific evidence that points in the direction of Trista? What evidence do you find that supports this.

    Also with advanced in technology, we are trackable, the money we spend, the places we go (cameras) the phones calls we make, our internet traffice and searches, even GPS on a cell phone, You can even be tracked down to a precise location by pictures that are posted online from a cell phone. With all this technology don't you think Ayla would have been found by the investigation. The evidence does point in a direction and the police have indicated that the people in the home on Violet are not being truthful about all they know. It has been confirmed by JD supporters that his polygraph was failed.

    Trista is not a person of financial means. She doesn't not have the resources to pull off an elaborate scene that would effectively hide a baby. Psychologically this scene would be VERY hard to keep up.

    I am not tryping to bash any opinions, I am just looking for a logical explaination to the initial question. I understand everyone is proven innocent until proven guilty and all that jazz. I am just wondering what evidence do you have for the opposite argument. Thanks

    1. you wont get the answer you seek from them. Notice the silence to your post is deafening? You won't get a rational answer from that side, as none exist, and this is becoming so self-evident as more of the truth and the evidence is revealed that the negative energy from that faction is beginning to can almost feel their ineffectuality and loss of motivation by belief in their growing absence on the blogs. Yay :D

    2. Some of it was extremely devious and aimed at focusing attention on the plausibility of the "Jessica Theory."
      It goes way back to early January and the obvious telltale give away of a suddenly new contributor walking in to a long established group of bantering posters talking serious lines of crap immediately or waiting and lurking until the time seemed right and then blowing it.

      The cup of blood or possibly more strains their ability to generate plausible rationales.

    3. OMG Seriously Wondering,
      Are u in denial? You aren't getting a response because he's guilty. You are waiting for something that's not going to happen. 1+1=2, please don't beg for another answer to that question.

      Move on.....

  14. Sincerely Wondering...the answer to your question lies in the lack of response to it. Those that believe Trista is hiding Ayla are delusional...they dislike Trista, they don't dare examine logic and facts, and they are blindly loyal to Justin. They turn a deaf ear to science, technology, and common sense.

    That is why you aren't getting any response.

    1. Glad to see you made your way over here mckeekitty. I always enjoy your posts on the mainetoday website.

  15. Emerald or someone else, can you check out the doctor visit records on the "Timeline" page at A4A, because I'm a little confused, mostly with the dates.

    1. I am on it it already, as some alarming contradictions pop out immediately- will post them all later.
      arm break fall is claimed by JD to be on the 11th nov, He was way done with school according to his school catalog.Raining that night..probably not.

      ER on the 12th.
      follow up(paperwork that is posted is from this visit)-Nov 14th

      Nov 27th follow up,last time Trista sees Ayla

      next follow up sched. for dec 8th, rescheduled: why?
      Trista calls, last time she talks to Ayla- LAST CONTACT
      this appt. rescheduled to Dec 16th -why?

      15th -TR files for custody--JD in portland-caught on tape with no Ayla

      Dec 16th follow up appt.- MISSED -why?
      SAME DAY--Play date with the ONLY person outside the DIPs and CR to claim to have seen ayla after dec 8th, derrik tudela.
      "abducted" (yeah right) this night as well

  16. Kit I communicated with Jeff on that. He says Trista made a mistake on the ER date. She said the 5th, it was the 12th. That puts injury on 11th, not 4th. She attended the two visits for which Jeff provided records. They don't yet have ER visit records.

    1. Yes, Im sorry, I just saw the response at A4A.

  17. "So why if there is such a damning piece of evidence against the people in the home the night Ayla disappeared have there been no arrests?"

    Because, while there IS physical evidence that points to Ayla's death, AND circumstantial evidence that points to her murder, there were 4 adults (at MINIMUM) who could have technically been the one to have actually carried out the act.

    If the DA brings charges against JDiP or JDiP/CR(IMO the most likely to have carried out the actual murderous act)their defense team(s) will undoubtedly be able to cast "reasonable doubt" that they are the ones responsible, based on the suspicious actions and statements of OTHERS linked to the crime, or had some knowledge and helped cover it up.

    Had all the other adults told what they knew, womaned/manned up regarding their relatively minor roles in the cover-up and disposal, and been honest with LE from the start, it is quite likely that JDiP (or JDiP AND CR) would have been arrested and charged with Ayla's murder long before now.

    Yet ANOTHER good reason to despise Elisha, Lance, Pheebs, Derek and Heidi..


    1. This has an added benefit. I believe this is taking so long because LE wants to connect all involved to Ayla's possible murder. I think LE was infuriated with their arrogance and lies and total disregard for an innocent baby and now want everyone involved to pay the maximum penalty allowed by the law. I think LE knows who killed Ayla and who helped and is looking to possibly connect a few more people before moving in with multiple arrests. Were I anyone associated with this, I would start saying goodbye to loved ones and get my personal effects in order. They are all going down.

  18. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's NestMarch 22, 2012 at 5:47 PM

    No offense, but Emerald you sound like someone who spends way too much time fantasizing. Do you work? You need to get out and get back in touch with the real world.

    I get this impression of you each time I read your posts. Please don't take offense, I just thought you should know. Sometimes all it takes is someone bringing it to your attention to realize that you need help. Why not get checked out and find a better life for yourself. Peace.

    1. One flew over the Courtney, Heidella, Lies.. I won;t give you away just yet.. I will wait till LE arrests you.

      I wonder how all of you will feel when you have no sweeping views but only sweeping duties.

      If you only knew what LE has on all of you, you would be cutting deals tonight.

    2. One Flew Over the Cuckoo NestMarch 22, 2012 at 6:08 PM

      Huh? I don't even live in Maine and I don't know any of those people. I'm just giving some well founded advice. I bet that many people reading your posts have come to the same conclusions. Why not print some of your posts out and print out my post and show them to a friend and see what your friend thinks.

    3. Too bad you will not have internet access in jail. I would love to run you in circles some more, but seeing everyone who hurt Ayla or aided in the cover-up in ANY way go to jail for most if not all of their remaining years will suffice.

    4. Crickets, chirp, chirp, chirp. Pretty weak denial, even for you.

    5. hahaha I can see how you would think that.
      It is hard to form a mental picture of what someone really is like from words on a page, or if they are being honest with what they type.
      Actually, I'm getting ready for major reconstructive surgery of my leg(2nd one) next week from a military accident. No walking for 3-6 months, and a bolt holding the distal ends of my tibia and fibula together. I'm stuck in bed right now because I can't walk right now, but I am going to school to finish my doctorate( I am on medical leave for three months). I work from home, but I am out and about with crutches or wheelchair too.
      I live in the real world every day unfortunately. It is a scary place.I served two tours, in two wars, once as a mechanic, once as a combat medic/surgical assistant, and worked in medical as an EMT before starting college.
      When I was 5 my mom's foster 17 year old foster son, who was abusing us along with the adults of the family, and a friend of his, kidnapped me and one of my younger siblings for 14 hours. My mom was passed out from partying all night, so they took us shoplifting, to several parties, whipped our asses for crying, and then took us out to the middle of the desert. We still have no idea why they took us there, but they rolled my mom's stole car down a cliff on the way out, and we were picked up by the cops after they tried to hitchhike to a hospital and leave us there(he broke his leg and the other guy his collar bone, us kids were bruised, cut, concussed from the loose tire chains and glass, but fine).
      I grew up with abuse, violence and drugs, and hated it. No one ever came to save me or my siblings.

      I have never commented on a blog or anything else before this, other than facebook. Ayla's story has held my attention raptly for personal reasons, and because I love kids...have 2 of em ...nothing wrong with wanting to see the truth come out, and set an example to all the substandard parents out there that killing your kids to get rid of them is just not the answer...and will not be tolerated I just wish this would end and they could bring her home to her Mom.
      :D no offense taken :D

    6. Haha I forgot to ask what you do, Cuckoo? do you live in the real world, where there is logic, and professionals who are trained to analyze volumes of material to find patterns of data in them? hehe if you pay taxes, then you paid for some of my training.
      I wasn't always a mechanic...I had a secret security clearance when stationed in DC and switched jobs my 1st year in...just curious as you seem more interested in my mental pathology then this case or Ayla...just curious, as I always am :D no offense

    7. Emerald,

      I always read your posts because you make sharp observations. There is often a quality about your writing that feels like you are wandering the physical space of Ayla's environment. You have been probing and questioning everything. Now I understand. You could have been in little Ayla's
      shoes. You were very close.

    8. I am surprised I survived shildhood, so you are right. I watched my youngest sibling fall in a fire we were playing next to when we were homeless. 5 fused fingers, skin melted off to the elbow. 4 surgeries and two years of therapy to fix it. I fell through a roof, got drug by a horse(two week in the hosp. for this one), and and survived a house fire lit by my other sibling while mom was again passed out. My parents had us folding "paper cups" only to find out when older they were coke bindles and they were using us as mules to transport it in our bags. SO very close.

    9. childhood damn fingers! haha

  19. Uh oh Emerald, when they can't discredit the message they try to discredit the messenger. You must have struck a nerve.

  20. I'd really like to see the original ER/Dr. report/record and see what the excuse was given there for her broken arm, plus if he said it was that day or the day before she got hurt. On the bone specialist notes it was the 14th, it said she hurt her arm 3 days prior, being the 11th which is a Friday. He said he fell with/on her the night before his last class, went to class the next day, but left early to bring her to the ER/DR. Did he have school/class on Saturday's? Plus I don't fully believe he left early on his own accord, last class probably was released early.
    What school did he go to? Is there any way to find out when the last class really was?

    1. Student in WatervilleMarch 22, 2012 at 8:15 PM

      Kit, the closest school for getting a CDL is Skowhegan Driving School, phone number 207-474-8524. The website didn't have a class schedule that I saw, but if someone wanted they could call. Skowhegan, for those who don't know, is only about half an hour away from Waterville. According to the site I was on, the next closest school is in Mexico or Scarborough, both over an hour away.

    2. when the carol gilbert? article on yahoo came out, J4A did a blog on the reiany night, last day issue. Look in there...someone called the school or used the online school catalog and got the dates...including the last date and posted it. Good luck, shouldnt be hard to find. :D

    3. Great, thanks Emerald and Student in Waterville!

  21. from the Kennebec Journal online

    "The next day, DiPietro left to attend a commercial driver's license course at Lawrence Adult Education in Fairfield. Before he left the driveway, however, Phoebe DiPietro called him back in into the house."

    I looked up the course catalog and it showed a class start date, a class length and a calendar of holidays. I computed an Oct. 27 end date.

  22. Oh and Kit on the days- it was a Tuesday Thursday class but there were truck driving sessions on Saturdays at times

  23. Hey Emerald:
    I love your posts. This case has grabbed me too.
    I have overcome ( well almost) alot. Long story, but I am here and you are also. And we've been doing real good lately, eh ?
    My heart goes out to you. I think survivors have something other peeps out there don't seem to have. Empathy and compassion for strangers and the ability to see things in a different light.
    Japanese Proverb : Fall down six get up seven.
    your anon ami from Canada

    1. haha yes we are! I got up 8 :D keep truckin' Ami

  24. Thanks CBG. I was just in the process of searching for all that. I guess technically he could have had a class on Nov. 12th. For the Tuesday/Thursday classes I saw it stated 2 make-up days were included, any more than 2, the student had to make them up at their cost. To be available for possible nights and Saturday's. He could have been making up a class (at his extra cost?). Either that, or it looked like there could have been totally different classes than the Tue/Thurs course. I couldn't see the past schedule, just the newest ones. But I guess it doesn't really matter anyway, because he COULD have had a class on Saturday the 12th.

  25. Interesting that JDiP couldn't even be bothered to listen to the doctors about Ayla's broken arm.

    It wasn't her FOREARM (radius or ulna) that was was the distal portion of her HUMERUS (right above the distal end that attaches to the elbow joint).

    He didn't even know what general PART of arm was BROKEN?

    1. Haha he knew...he just used one of the oldest tricks in the handbook for child abusers... I will post why I think so, (and I am sure the attending doc can confirm this with Jeff and Trista), as soon as the anon who emailed me contacts me back :D
      he just got caught this lie is provable :D

    2. Awesome!
      I'll be waiting eagerly for this info and your interpretation, Emerald!

  26. Also Emerald and VTLady, I'm waiting to see with A4A if I'm horribly confused with the dates or if the bone specialist (on Nov. 21) wanted to see Ayla in ten days, but ended up scheduling the first time, 17 days out, then rescheduling for actually 25 days out. Does that sound normal to anyone? I used to work at a pedi. office, I've never seen a dr say 25 days would be ok, after they decided to see the pt in 10 days. A couple days difference yes, but not 25!
    That seems to be due to the dr/office.

    But, to top it off JD missed FOUR dr appointments! 3 for immunizations! And the last bone specialist appointment. WTH :(

    1. Why invest time or money in keeping a baby healthy if you don't plan for her to be around long? The arm was probably very painful and had her crying so much he couldn't take it and had to get her treatment. At least that's what I suspect.

    2. I don't care, all the groupies can say I'm nuts, crazy and whatever else they desire, but I am NOT buying that Ayla's arm was an accident. Not one bit! I don't know why LE was so quick to state it was ruled an accident, with their "extensive interviews" on day one? Which LE stated this, does anyone remember? Was it WPD, or MSP?

    3. I don't buy it either, which is why he lied about it being her forearm. Deflect attention.

  27. "One Flew Over the Cuckoo Nest
    Mar 22, 2012 03:08 PM

    Huh? I don't even live in Maine and I don't know any of those people. I'm just giving some well founded advice. I bet that many people reading your posts have come to the same conclusions. Why not print some of your posts out and print out my post and show them to a friend and see what your friend thinks."

    That is the angle on reality The J-Team can't fathom.
    Most people keep themselves clean and neat, obey the laws, pay their taxes and look out for their neighbors no matter their burdens.

    But... only a narcissist measures their worth or validity by the reflection other people hold of them in their minds. Its pleasant to be around like minded people or have honest debates with honorable persons of the opposite view, but nobody really cares about what others think other than the basics of smelling like you took a bath this month and staying out of trouble, so when you focus your light sabers on your targets minor social flaws and average humanities you appear to be rather sadistic.

    Does Daryl keep a suitcase full of slacks in his car or is he allowed to put them on inside the hallway just before leaving the house for work?

    The newspaper article was funny in that Ben portrayed Justin and Derek as young versions of Dietrich and Adolph holing up in their berghof
    mountain retreat with its sweeping views of the distant Rhine.

    Its uncanny how much Justin resemble Dietrich.



    Have your friends call up each page in single browser and flick back and forth between pages and let me know what your friends say Frau Heidi.

    Not to touch the earth
    Not to see the sun
    Nothing left to do, but
    Run, run, run
    Let's run
    Let's run
    House upon the hill
    Moon is lying still
    Shadows of the trees
    Witnessing the wild breeze
    C'mon baby run with me
    Let's run
    Run with me
    Run with me
    Run with me
    Let's run
    The mansion is warm, at the top of the hill
    Rich are the rooms and the comforts there
    Red are the arms of luxuriant chairs
    And you won't know a thing till you get inside
    Dead president's corpse in the driver's car
    The engine runs on glue and tar
    Come on along, not goin' very far
    To the east to meet the czar
    Run with me
    Run with me
    Run with me
    Let's run
    Some outlaws lived by the side of a lake
    The minister's daughter's in love with the snake
    Who lives in a well by the side of the road
    Wake up, girl, we're almost home
    Ya, c'mon!
    We should see the gates by mornin'
    We should be inside the evenin'
    Sun, sun, sun
    Burn, burn, burn
    Soon, soon, soon
    Moon, moon, moon
    I will get you
    Soon!, soon!, soon!
    I am the lizard king
    I can do anything

  28. W'ville Deputy Rumsey said it-

    1. Thank you info. I wonder if MSP left it at that...?

  29. I know the groupies were upset and sick of talking about Ayla's broken arm, last time it was revisited. It's no surprise why, at this point. Looks like it needs to be revisited again.

  30. Kit, I hear the silence, it's so loud, as they regroup to try to figure out how to lie their way around the medical evidence. They must know "we know better than the doctors" won't get them far with police and courts. Next thing you know it will be Trista and Jessica coming over to steal their lasagna and trying to snatch Ayla as an afterthought, with Superhero Justin wrestling Ayla out of their arms, unfortunately breaking her arm but doing it "for her own good." :)

    1. I'm surprised he didn't find a way to blame it on Trista to begin with. "Let" her have a visit that day, and claim she was "normal" when she went with Trista. Then pull the old I don't know, I didn't see anything etc....

  31. I hope Mama Heidi washed Justin's tighty whities, because I think he's probably needing a fresh pair, right about now.

  32. the break and the hematoma does not match the accident...the break is at the distal end of her arm, above the condyle, and is displaced from force toward the left in the direction of the ulna, and dorsally, so back toward her elbow. It is possible it was an accident, but I think I read somewhere that breaks her in people under 50 are rare(check this not sure), and from the break displacement, hematoma in her elbow crook(cubital fossa) and swelling, it seems very suspicious as justin would have had to have fallen on her wih her arm hitting ht 90 degree leading edge of the step just below the elbow.
    In order for the break to happen that way, she would have had to fall on the front of her arm. The hematoma in her fossa confirms this and it is the only site of visible injury mentioned i the report. I used a dolly form my girl to work it out going up steps to achieve the same injury. if carrying her in left arm, he falls, Ayla has to hit face forward, left arm forward, right above the elbow, in the front, just above the depression in the elbow always used to draw blood. the force would push the bone back dorsally, and to the left, ulnarly.
    SHe would have had to land under justin with her left arm at the elbow across the step edge to force a break right there. that is very unlikely holding her on the left, he would have to drop her , let her arm go vertical, then fall so her arm was across the step edge perpendicular. If carrying on the right, he would have had to drop her face first, then fall on her. either way, she would have sustained facial/head, collarbone, etc...injuries and other bruises form additional points of contact with the steps...he is lying about the story I think sorry for the mess up

    Emerald Sphere
    about an hour ago
    Emerald Sphere

    "of the step just below the elbow.
    In order for the break to happen that way,"
    ------ just above the elbow ,sorry--- like breaking a stick on the edge of a table, they are perpendicular to each other

    If I am picturing this correctly does anyone ever fall with their arm in that awkward position? It's totally unnatural to have the inside of your arm facing out when you're falling -doesn't it also seem like the side that has to get injured in a fall like that is the leading side? (her right if on his right, her left if on his left?) For her to fall and him to land on her without them twisting all over creation, isn't that the only thing that makes sense? Now I'm trying to think if he were grabbing for a rail or something but to do that he'd have to drop the groceries or her.

    Emerald Sphere
    about an hour ago
    Emerald Sphere

    no that is my point that is why the docs where suspicious
    the break had to have come from frontal contact, near or just above the cubital fossa( inside of the elbow). The hematoma si either from direct impact, or from a broken artery(brachial artery is there, plus some large accessory vessels). I think it is not matching up possily due to the ackward position of the arm, and if the arm was like this, how/where was her chin, teeth, side of head, injuries to them at all , or to her hands, wrists, etc...? the report doesn't mention any at all too strange and not fitting the fall excuse...this is why the stoyr is swiss cheese

    Emerald Sphere
    about an hour ago
    Emerald Sphere

    the only way to have the inside hit like that is to have the arm under you, but then your head and face hit too... not fitting any way I look at it

  33. All Trista and Jeff need to do to catch Justin in a lie is have the pediatrician confirm that Justin and Trista were told and shown by the pediatrician that the break was at the humerus, not at the forearm. I believe that Justin lied and said it ws her forearm, not because it was a mistake, or ignorance, but because he is trying to deflect attention from the location of the injury, her upper arm, because it is a suspicious break...and because it is above the elbow. any force to her arm from the hand or wrist would likely not transfer sufficient force up to the condyle of the humerus to break it, without also injuring the fingers, hand, wrist or elbow joint...and it would not likely cause breaks displaced in 2 directions...something is not right

  34. "Justin"March 23, 2012 at 12:17 AM

    Heidi, I need a new pair.

  35. J4A check yer facebook, mate I sent you a message :)

  36. yikes, I read on Jeff's site that he is finding out the dates of the texts, but Trista says they were between the 8th and the 12th I think I read(or the 8th and the 11th...) this unfortunately fits into my timeline theory perfectly, and causes a "bubble of interest" around this tome period, as many things in this story hinge on this date. It really makes me start to think she was killed around the weekend of December 10th(so the late the 8th,or on the 9th, 10th or 11th). CR likely was visiting. SHe did not go to her appt on the 8th, but it was rescheduled for the 16th. Tr talked to her last on the 8th, so I believe it was just after this. Arg!! need more info...this is so frustrating as it-the truth- it is lurking before our eyes, we just can't see it yet...I can feel that we will be understanding things in leaps and bounds soon...thanks Jeff for posting the documents on your site...helps unravel the knots :D

  37. Yes Emerald, I unfortunately agree. I think it caused headaches for Justin every time Trista talked with Ayla, because it probably caused great sadness and confusion for Ayla. I'm willing to bet she cried a lot from missing her Mommy so much, especially after talking/seeing her. Also, I said before, I don't know how far along her speech is/was at that time, but ANYONE with kids/toddlers know all too well how the repeat over and over and over, then over again some more whatever they want. Sometimes it's kind of funny, because they just don't give up! But sometimes it can become a bit annoying, I wonder if all of this was getting to him? Plus geez, having her proved to be such an inconvenience, he couldn't even bother to bring her to FOUR doctor appointments!!

    I think the broken arm is for SURE fishy. There should have probably def. been some injuries on her skin, on the outside, not just the broken bone. Especially where he supposedly fell ON her with groceries. I don't think a toddler would come out of a grown man falling on top of her ON stairs, with no outside/skin bruises/scrapes...

  38. The medical appt on the 16th appears to have been CANCELLED, not merely missed. And there is no indication Justin rescheduled it. It's likely Ayla was not around anymore. Think about it. The flurry of activity- the 15th, he spends in Portland gathering up his stuff and bringing it back to Waterville where he supposedly had been living since mid-October. The 16th he cancels Ayla's followup appt. with the bone doctor. The 17th he claims she's been kidnapped in the night.

    In the days before this frantic stretch, Trista had been asking to talk to Ayla every day. Was he in a bind because he knew he could only delay the discovery that Ayla was gone for so long before his gig was up?

    1. Do you know he cancelled the appointment? Or you just think he did? I don't think he would bother cancelling an appointment, but if he did, that's pretty damn stupid, especially if he didn't reschedule it, even just for "show".

      He missed 4 doctor appointments, 3 of which were for immunizations. I wonder if he took it upon himself to actually call to reschedule those or if he missed them and the dr office was "hounding" him?

  39. I contacted Jeff about that very thing...haven't heard back yet I am guessing the appt on the 8th was cancelled, then move to the 16th, then cancelled...abusers do that to avoid injuries being seen, but I think it is because she was gone by the weekend of the 10th. It is all starting to add up. Disgusting

  40. Emerald, Jeff said/though the 8th was rescheduled by the dr office. But that seems strange to wait so long for the follow up. I'd like to know if Trista was at the dr and heard this with her own ears, or if JD just TOLD her that.

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